The A Collection of Unusual Pedantry blog which the author references is an amazing introduction to this work of thinking (the challenges of military operations, and the forces that shape warfare and civilization). [1] If you're already familiar with ACoUP, or find Cataphracts fascinating, you might also enjoy Edward N. Luttwak's The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire of which one review says (and which I find a quality summary):
"The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire is written with a profound knowledge of the field, a thorough mastery of the sources and secondary literature, and a lively and engaging style that both specialists and general readers will appreciate." —Peter B. Golden, Rutgers University
He writes about games from time to time. You can sense the friendly frustration. I wish he’d take a sabbatical from Professor-ing and, like, Creative Assembly could hire him to consult on a total war game.
There is only so much realism you can inject before it detracts from the fun. The author occasionally even references this during his analysis on how some mechanic would be required for simplicity or balancing a rock-paper-scissors troop counters.
The inability to pull off really flashy and intricate tactics would be a bit of a downer. But, some realism additions, like more sensible mixed-units formations seem like they’d be a great and fun upgrade for a total-war type game. And who doesn’t want to see a caracole?
Sounds like a really interesting and delightfully frustrating game. Bit busy to join at the moment but it’s going on my list for the future.
The comments about the loyalty of the sub-commanders being very strong due to the extremely restrictive information environment reminded me of opposite within the history book Nemesis by Max Hastings.
He covers the end of the Second World War in the pacific. One veteran commented that it seemed that the different commanders and services within the US armed forces were more at conflict with each other than with the Japanese, all trying to get the resources and credit for the successes. (Especially MacArthur in the Philippines).
The radio and news reels of the days could both provide fast information about what is/was happening and also ensure fame and fortune in the domestic environment if your narrative could prevail
>One veteran commented that it seemed that the different commanders and services within the US armed forces were more at conflict with each other than with the Japanese
MacArthur and Patton were both massive egomaniacs, weren't they? I guess well-adjusted people don't end up as wartime generals.
But the Japanese army and navy hated each other so much that some Admirals and Generals were walking around with bullets in them from unsuccessful assassination attempts from the other service. Not a great way to run a war.
I loved this theme in Patton! I wonder if the gov't fostered this or simply allowed it to manifest because, for the most part, it gave extra motivation to the generals to succeed and succeed well.
Every war needs Heroes.
Gotta sell those war bonds!
Boost favourable public opinion and control the positive narrative.
I believe that Stalin set 2 field marshals (Georgy Zhukov and Ivan Konev) on a race to Berlin in the last weeks of WW2 in Europe. Don’t think Stalin cared who won.
> there are a lot of games about strategy [..] and innumerable games about tactics [..], but very few about operations. Almost no games, as far as I’m aware, are interested in, say, the logistics of feeding an army, or communication structures between commanders in the field.
Allow me to whine about Ubisoft buying out Settlers, which was initially about (peace time) logistics, and somehow thinking they bought a RTS.
Same with Knights & Merchants, which was a city builder but you had to feed your peasants and army every day (I forgot how time worked in that game though), which involved a peasant going to the inn to eat for X amount of time, then going to the storehouse to pick up a bread or sausage and bringing it to a soldier. Times every peasant, times every soldier. I don't know if I remember that accurately though.
At a quick check the lead developer and artist on Knights & Merchants had previously worked on Settlers II at BlueByte. Looks like they liked their job a lot and quit before the series drifted more towards being a RTS.
Lots of games that are billed as “strategy” are really more operations (or even tactics!) than strategy, right? I mean it is often the case in a strategy game that you just start out at war with everybody else, taking away the most important strategic decision.
Or, there are games like Civilization or Total war where, really, c’mon, you know it is just a matter of when, not if, you go to war.
And while that one doesn't shy away from the material and financial cost of war, it greatly simplified traveling, allowing for shortcuts like jump drives allowing for instant teleportation of armies.
The article alludes to the fact of few games covering strategic, operational and tactical play. I recently got into (and heartily recommend) a grand strategy game called Terra Invicta, where you play as a global Illuminati-style faction trying to influence the result of an alien invasion of the solar system.
It involves strategic decision-making (control and priorities of Earth nations), operational decisions (spaceships and armies take weeks or months to reach their destinations), and a very deep tactical element of 3D space battles (consisting of spaceships having extremely asynchronous capabilities). Logistics and extended-term planning are absolutely key to success in this game
It's been an extremely fun, satisfying experience so far, albeit with a high learning curve.
Not sure how to do it, but a history of the campaign from the different viewpoints would be an interesting read.
Perhaps a journalist piecing together the information, 6 months to a year after the events. Once the ripples have settled, more or less.
I might be biased as I have been reading 3 part history of the American Civil War, which also suffered from the fog of war and very slow information propagation.
Of course, history is always written by the victors after their glorious triumph has been consolidated and the losers comprehensively defeated.
Directly reminds me of Subterfuge which is a fog of war and realtime submarine war game of conquering outposts. It has absolutely 0% loyalty though which makes it hard to play.
Was totally interested until I read its play-by-post and he keeps track of all the troop movements and results. Not exactly what I had pictured in my head before I clicked the link. I don’t understand how people have the time to play things by mail in realtime. I want an evening escape, not a lifetime achievement.
> I don’t understand how people have the time to play things by mail in realtime
It's not via mail, it's via discord; there are more details in the submission:
"I set up a channel on a reasonably-popular RPG discord server I’m on, then each commander gets their own thread, using discord’s thread feature. Each commander then gets a little doc with their character writeup and a sheet with their army numbers. They write messages to me, I reply and notify them as events occur, and I keep track of everything on a big spreadsheet and a running Photoshop map file. (...)"
---
Also note that in early wargames writing down orders was part of the game, e.g.:
"Players do not speak to each other. Instead, they communicate with their teammates and the umpire through written messages. This is so that the enemy team cannot hear their plans. This is also so that the umpire can delay or block messages if he feels the circumstances on the battlefield warrant it. In the early 19th century, officers in the field communicated over long distances through messengers. There was no radio in those days. Messengers needed time to reach the recipient, and could be delayed or intercepted by the enemy. The umpire can simulate this problem by holding on to a player's message for a round or two before giving it to the recipient, never giving it, or even give it to the enemy."
I actually got excited thinking it was play by mail but it was not. I was picturing weathered wax sealed letters arriving to your mailbox, written in an old school font, detailing outcomes of your decisions and how you wanted to proceed.
Sounds very cool. I wish I had the patience for this kind of real-time game. I did a real time Kerbal mission to Mun once and that was about at my limit. It sounds like this wargame requires much more.
The A Collection of Unusual Pedantry blog which the author references is an amazing introduction to this work of thinking (the challenges of military operations, and the forces that shape warfare and civilization). [1] If you're already familiar with ACoUP, or find Cataphracts fascinating, you might also enjoy Edward N. Luttwak's The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire of which one review says (and which I find a quality summary):
1. https://acoup.blog/He writes about games from time to time. You can sense the friendly frustration. I wish he’d take a sabbatical from Professor-ing and, like, Creative Assembly could hire him to consult on a total war game.
He also has a great collection of his posts that are particularly useful for aspiring authors and rpg game masters:
https://acoup.blog/resources-for-world-builders/
There is only so much realism you can inject before it detracts from the fun. The author occasionally even references this during his analysis on how some mechanic would be required for simplicity or balancing a rock-paper-scissors troop counters.
The inability to pull off really flashy and intricate tactics would be a bit of a downer. But, some realism additions, like more sensible mixed-units formations seem like they’d be a great and fun upgrade for a total-war type game. And who doesn’t want to see a caracole?
He himself seems more interested in Paradox games. I wonder what he will think about EUV.
Sounds like a really interesting and delightfully frustrating game. Bit busy to join at the moment but it’s going on my list for the future.
The comments about the loyalty of the sub-commanders being very strong due to the extremely restrictive information environment reminded me of opposite within the history book Nemesis by Max Hastings.
He covers the end of the Second World War in the pacific. One veteran commented that it seemed that the different commanders and services within the US armed forces were more at conflict with each other than with the Japanese, all trying to get the resources and credit for the successes. (Especially MacArthur in the Philippines).
The radio and news reels of the days could both provide fast information about what is/was happening and also ensure fame and fortune in the domestic environment if your narrative could prevail
>One veteran commented that it seemed that the different commanders and services within the US armed forces were more at conflict with each other than with the Japanese
MacArthur and Patton were both massive egomaniacs, weren't they? I guess well-adjusted people don't end up as wartime generals.
But the Japanese army and navy hated each other so much that some Admirals and Generals were walking around with bullets in them from unsuccessful assassination attempts from the other service. Not a great way to run a war.
I loved this theme in Patton! I wonder if the gov't fostered this or simply allowed it to manifest because, for the most part, it gave extra motivation to the generals to succeed and succeed well.
Every war needs Heroes. Gotta sell those war bonds! Boost favourable public opinion and control the positive narrative.
I believe that Stalin set 2 field marshals (Georgy Zhukov and Ivan Konev) on a race to Berlin in the last weeks of WW2 in Europe. Don’t think Stalin cared who won.
> there are a lot of games about strategy [..] and innumerable games about tactics [..], but very few about operations. Almost no games, as far as I’m aware, are interested in, say, the logistics of feeding an army, or communication structures between commanders in the field.
Allow me to whine about Ubisoft buying out Settlers, which was initially about (peace time) logistics, and somehow thinking they bought a RTS.
Same with Knights & Merchants, which was a city builder but you had to feed your peasants and army every day (I forgot how time worked in that game though), which involved a peasant going to the inn to eat for X amount of time, then going to the storehouse to pick up a bread or sausage and bringing it to a soldier. Times every peasant, times every soldier. I don't know if I remember that accurately though.
At a quick check the lead developer and artist on Knights & Merchants had previously worked on Settlers II at BlueByte. Looks like they liked their job a lot and quit before the series drifted more towards being a RTS.
> there are a lot of games about strategy [..] and innumerable games about tactics [..], but very few about operations
Operational wargames are a thing (at least on boardgames)
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/181039/favorite-operation...
Arguably games like StarCraft include operational elements - managing and defending the peon line is as important as the front line.
Lots of games that are billed as “strategy” are really more operations (or even tactics!) than strategy, right? I mean it is often the case in a strategy game that you just start out at war with everybody else, taking away the most important strategic decision.
Or, there are games like Civilization or Total war where, really, c’mon, you know it is just a matter of when, not if, you go to war.
Are there games in this genre that aren't historical?
Don't know... maybe you can pick one of them in BGG and drill-down by mechanics?
As a recovered EVE Online addict, there is at least one game out there that requires significant time on logistics and operations to win wars.
And while that one doesn't shy away from the material and financial cost of war, it greatly simplified traveling, allowing for shortcuts like jump drives allowing for instant teleportation of armies.
The article alludes to the fact of few games covering strategic, operational and tactical play. I recently got into (and heartily recommend) a grand strategy game called Terra Invicta, where you play as a global Illuminati-style faction trying to influence the result of an alien invasion of the solar system.
It involves strategic decision-making (control and priorities of Earth nations), operational decisions (spaceships and armies take weeks or months to reach their destinations), and a very deep tactical element of 3D space battles (consisting of spaceships having extremely asynchronous capabilities). Logistics and extended-term planning are absolutely key to success in this game
It's been an extremely fun, satisfying experience so far, albeit with a high learning curve.
Not sure how to do it, but a history of the campaign from the different viewpoints would be an interesting read.
Perhaps a journalist piecing together the information, 6 months to a year after the events. Once the ripples have settled, more or less.
I might be biased as I have been reading 3 part history of the American Civil War, which also suffered from the fog of war and very slow information propagation.
Of course, history is always written by the victors after their glorious triumph has been consolidated and the losers comprehensively defeated.
Directly reminds me of Subterfuge which is a fog of war and realtime submarine war game of conquering outposts. It has absolutely 0% loyalty though which makes it hard to play.
Was totally interested until I read its play-by-post and he keeps track of all the troop movements and results. Not exactly what I had pictured in my head before I clicked the link. I don’t understand how people have the time to play things by mail in realtime. I want an evening escape, not a lifetime achievement.
> I don’t understand how people have the time to play things by mail in realtime
It's not via mail, it's via discord; there are more details in the submission:
"I set up a channel on a reasonably-popular RPG discord server I’m on, then each commander gets their own thread, using discord’s thread feature. Each commander then gets a little doc with their character writeup and a sheet with their army numbers. They write messages to me, I reply and notify them as events occur, and I keep track of everything on a big spreadsheet and a running Photoshop map file. (...)"
---
Also note that in early wargames writing down orders was part of the game, e.g.:
"Players do not speak to each other. Instead, they communicate with their teammates and the umpire through written messages. This is so that the enemy team cannot hear their plans. This is also so that the umpire can delay or block messages if he feels the circumstances on the battlefield warrant it. In the early 19th century, officers in the field communicated over long distances through messengers. There was no radio in those days. Messengers needed time to reach the recipient, and could be delayed or intercepted by the enemy. The umpire can simulate this problem by holding on to a player's message for a round or two before giving it to the recipient, never giving it, or even give it to the enemy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsspiel
> I want an evening escape
That would be giving orders for one turn. Why the rush?
> not a lifetime achievement.
That would be those free to play clickers.
you're unable to comprehend why people have a long-term hobbies?
Back in the day my buddies and I used to play Civilization 2 by swapping a floppy with the save file back and forth every day we met in school.
I actually got excited thinking it was play by mail but it was not. I was picturing weathered wax sealed letters arriving to your mailbox, written in an old school font, detailing outcomes of your decisions and how you wanted to proceed.
Just get 20 hobbies like that to fill up each evening.
Sounds very cool. I wish I had the patience for this kind of real-time game. I did a real time Kerbal mission to Mun once and that was about at my limit. It sounds like this wargame requires much more.
[dead]
It will go well with fantasy ambience for RPGs: https://tabletopy.com