I'm sure there are more. I recall tons of these posts, and am too lazy to search. It was, and I guess still is, a thing that people go back to over and over. I think it makes people feel good for no particular reason
My Japanese friend said "My 生き甲斐 is travel". She was unfamiliar with the Venn diagram, for her she would directly translate it as "passion".
Turns out the Venn diagram relation is from a random 2014 blog post. He just found a Venn diagram online and replaced the word "purpose" with "ikigai":
I've talked to a number of Japanese people about Ikigai, and they either didn't know about the Venn diagram, or thought it misrepresented the concept. It's the modern-day equivalent of "the Chinese word for crisis" [0]. But now it's unstoppable—I'm sure you can find pillows on Etsy with the diagram.
>When we asked what their ikigai was, they gave us explicit answers, such as their friends, gardening, and art
Correct me if I'm wrong but almost no one is paid for friends, gardening or art. And the definition of ikigai is "something you can be paid for". So this concept of ikigai essentially does not exist.
Based on the article alone, you seem to be getting that from the Venn diagram. But the Venn diagram doesn’t attempt to define Ikigai. It’s a tool to help one find their own ikigai.
The definition of ikugai in the article does not include something you can be paid for.
My hot take is that the part that got lost in translation as it transitioned into a pithy airport bookstore business book is that it originally didn't have to be a single activity that covers all of the Venn diagram.
It is more about making sure the union of the Venn diagram is covered by one or more daily activities. So hobbies are about ensuring that you are not just focusing on the vocation circle.
Ikigai is a great branding for Japan. They’ve taken a word, declared it untranslatable and a unique component of Japanese culture.
Denmark has done the same with the word “Hygge” and you’ll find books named “hygge”, next to books named “ikigai” in self-help section of any airport bookstore.
I don’t think discussing ikigai is uninteresting, but there is a feedback loop. Japanese soft power benefits from ikigai being special, and books and articles about ikigai also benefits from it being unique and special. The more books you can sell on ikigai, the stronger Japans cultural influence becomes and as a result, the potential readership of ikigai book grows.
FWIW, I'm by no means trying to be cynical, especially considering that I do some (lighter) forestry work myself, have done lots of tree planting and definitely love being in the wilderness. Forest and nature do play a central role in our cultural heritage. Currently, however, other members of this same society carry out massive clear-cuttings in our forests. So... this is "us" as well, I guess. Demolishing and praising, side by side. That's why the work of these referred two scholars is really interesting, maybe even corageous in a way, considering that "forest wars" are a huge topic in Estonia these days.
I have these in my google calendar. Kinda forgot they were japanese and they don't line up with our (european) weather perfectly, but i still enjoy seeing them there.
To add to this, I would argue that ikigai can be directly translated to purpose in English. Sure purpose has additional meanings, and ikigai has a philosophy behind it which one word like “purpose” does not convey, but if you use purpose in a sentence that has something to do with how you find meaning in life and a reason to go on, then people will correctly understand your meaning.
If purpose is not good enough then try “a reason for being” “a reason to live” etc
Maybe people are confusing describing a whole philosophical concept with translating a word
If there was a massive push for "ikigai" either within Japan or outside of it, I totally missed it. To me, this looks one of those articles written by some random bureaucrat that no one really reads.
Regarding the article, there are indeed many words and phrases that can't really be translated to English. I don't think "ikigai" is one of them, though. It's called a purpose.
This is one of the reasons I didn't like "The Toyota Way" book. I have read it after I have been exposed to the theory of constraints and some other knowledge about production organization, and I was turned off about all the "mystery".
Same thing about meditation. Tried so many times and failed. Finally acquired the skill with a good self-hypnosis book. Appreciate the meditation/self-hypnosis ever after.
In both cases, I think highly about these ideas and practices, be it "ikigai" or "a reason for being", "muda" or "eliminating bottlenecks", "meditation" or "trance". Each person has their own way to understand these and either is fine when it works, but the artificial mysticism is disappointing.
---
Yet, it is interesting to observe that "ikigai" needs several words to be translated to English. I suppose it reflects the the importance of the concept in the culture. Like the 50 eskimo words for snow.
I saw a coffee ad yesterday waxing poetic about the calmness and ancient history of traditional Japanese kissaten and my eyes just about rolled out of my head. It's totally unlike an American coffeehouse, you see, because they use dark roasts.
At the end, there's one of the craziest Venn diagrams I've seen in a while. The diagram asserts that --- by definition --- you aren't good at your "mission," the world does not need your "profession," you can't be paid for your "passion," and you can't love your "vocation." Grim!
That's not what it's trying to imply. It's saying that if you chose a job based on what the world needs and what you love doing, you're in the realm of completing a mission. Then you look at the diagram to see what you're missing to reach Ikigai. This is a very "glass half empty" look at a literal diagram lol.
There's this diagram, and there's David Graeber's book Bullshit Jobs.
"What you love" and "What you are good at" certainly have a non-empty intersection, but that's mostly a distinct set from "what you can be paid for". "What you are good at" and "What you can be paid for" also have a non-empty intersection, but that set is again (mostly) distinct from "what you love". In brief, you can enjoy work, but then it will pay shit, or you can make money, but you'll hate it.
The most interesting part however is the right hand side. "What you can be paid for" and "What the world needs" have a practically empty intersection. Regardless of both personal skill and drive, there is effectively zero money available for the sorest needs of society. (Public healthcare (including mental health), public education, public infrastructure, etc.)
The obvious question to ask about this purported "pick two" triad is, why must that be so?
- If one is good at their job, why does that imply that either they won't be paid well, or they'll hate it?
- If one enjoys their job, why does that imply they must be paid poorly or suck at it?
- If one is paid well, why does that imply they will be eaten alive by work or terrible at their job?
The assertions such diagrams make just don't stand up to scrutiny when viewed in reverse. They should stand up to symmetry, and clearly do not; the veneer of logic is peeled away. Instead it reveals the underlying issue: they serve only to elucidate a cynical outlook.
Perhaps in general, I'll admit, there is presently a shortage of opportunities working for the public good; but I'm reluctant to even give an inch on that because it lends itself to a cynical belief system about the world which the statement alone does not imply: it is not necessarily a true inference to say that, if there is a shortage, there will never be; or, that if one wants such a job, they will never be able to get it and best give up early.
Don't let cynicism take you. It will take, and take, and take, and leave you only table scraps of joy.
> The obvious question to ask about this purported "pick two" triad is, why must that be so?
It is not a law of the universe, so the answer to your question is "it isn't necessarily". But even if it isn't always true, it's usually true. And thus it's a useful metric to keep in mind. Being lucky enough to get all three qualities in your job is rare, and you can't expect that it'll happen.
> The diagram asserts that --- by definition --- you aren't good at your "mission,"
This is a misreading of the Venn diagram. Ikigai is the only section where Passion, Mission, Profession, and Vocation all intersect. The "Passion" etc sections are not bounded to the 2-layer overlaps where the labels sit, they extend into the 3 and 4-layer overlaps also.
But I'll grant you that the Venn diagram is crazy and overpacked.
How to balance ikigai with society ? being averaged by groups and stuck in norms is probably the number one reason daily life is the opposite of ikigai.
The TLDR I got from is that first - that the diagram itself was made up by someone trying to write a business blog/book.
The second is that the goal is not to find one singular activity to cover the intersection of the Ikigai Venn diagram. Instead it can be better to have multiple different activities which ensure the union of the Ikigai Venn diagram is covered so you aren't myopically focused on one area of it.
I absolutely hate this concept. It's trite life advice wrapped up in self-serving orientalism/ethnic exceptionalism.
It literally just boils down to "if you find life meaningless, just find some mundane thing and invest it with meaning for yourself", and somehow I'm supposed to be wowed by an aenemic, EILIF version of Nietzche. Literal "Place" vs "Place, Japan" meme.
Why do you think Japan has so much suicide? Because all anybody has to say to anybody is "ganbattene~". Some people run out of "ganbari"? "Ganbattene~~".
Japan suicide rate has decreased a lot, and is now almost the world average, it is actually lower than in the US and several European countries.
I agree however that this smells of orientialism. I don't speak anywhere fluently Japanese, but having lived there for 15 years, the only time I've seen or heard of the ikigai concept is in the "Book for foreigners" section.
Is this term actually used widely through Japanese culture or are they just riding the popularity train? E.g. if I'm in a "planning your future career" class in a high school in Japan, is the concept of ikigai going to come up?
Most Japanese people do not use this term, and I'm fairly certain most Japanese people don't even really know the word. This is one of those "Big in Japan" things, except, uh, "Big outside Japan".
Source: live in Japan, have asked Japanese people around me if they know about this concept (that is popular in USA). Usually hear: へ〜、全然知らない。
It's a normal word/concept that everyone's familiar with.
As for career planning, I don't think it's very relevant. The sorta-equivalent sayings like "do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life!" tend to be used in a way that puts existing preferences and interests first, and everything else as a consequence of it. The way I'd think of "ikigai" in a career context, the work being meaningful (as in the opposite of a "bullshit job") is what comes first. Since it's meaningful, it's something the world needs, so you can get paid for it. Since it's the opposite of a bullshit job, you're motivated to devote the time and effort and attention to be(come) good at it. A job well-done is satisfying. So I'd envision it as something you settle into, rather than plan ahead with your guidance counselor equivalent.
It's also not necessarily a word specific to jobs/careers in the first place, and in a literal sense only means "I live for this" / "it's worth living for". The rest is a recent fixation by writers.
Back in reality, the word is more commonly used in the expression 生き甲斐がある (ikigai ga aru) which means roughly "Life is good", "I'm glad to be alive", which you might use after sipping a really good beer for example.
Do you know why people in Okinawa and Sardinia have great longevity? Is it Ikigai, or living simple village life, or eating maggot infested cheese? No, it's because of lack of record keeping, specifically families keeping people "alive" to collect pensions:
It begins, "The pre-print is not new data, research, or a study. It is a theory – an opinion paper that the author has been unable to get published in any scientific journal or peer-reviewed publication. The original version of the paper was released as a pre-print in 2019 and still has not been properly published, meaning the theories have never passed any scientific peer review."
have hobbies and goals and participate in community activities... I don't know how I feel about platitudes like this. On one hand, it is obviously true and doing this things will make you feel better... but at the same time I think most people already understand this and its not a matter of simply not knowing that this is a helpful thing to do.
This article kind of feels like a "place, Japan" type of article not going to lie. "There is no other word like this in any other language." Passion? Purpose?
"Vocation" is a synonym, though it is misrepresented by the Venn diagram at the bottom of the article
Looking up "vocation" in modern dictionaries just says that it's a career, but that is wrong. The real meaning is a "calling", or: something that brings good to the world, that you can do, that you enjoy doing, and that sustains your livelihood
I grew up around Lutheran communities who stressed what a gift a vocation is because it isn't something that most people can reach. But we shouldn't stop looking for ours
Vo-ca′tion (vō̍-kā′shŭn), noun [L. vocatio a bidding, invitation, fr. vocare to call, fr. vox, vocis, voice: cf. F. vocation. See Vocal.]
1. A call; a summons; a citation; especially, a designation or appointment to a particular state, business, or profession.
2. Destined or appropriate employment; calling; occupation; trade; business; profession.
3. (Theol.) A calling by the will of God. Specifically: –
(a) The bestowment of God’s distinguishing grace upon a person or nation, by which that person or nation is put in the way of salvation; as, the vocation of the Jews under the old dispensation, and of the Gentiles under the gospel.
(b) A call to special religious work, as to the ministry.
I take issue with the phrasing, but not with the meaning, especially with the historical context.
More or less: that thing which you seem to have an overriding passion for, which usually leads to talent. Even if it doesn't, though, it's still something that defines a significant part of your life and character, and that is not to be ignored.
Not a Japanese person, but the way this has been explained to me feels slightly broader than the concept of vocation.
The explanation was more along the lines of, "what gives your life meaning, joy, and purpose, and makes you motivated to get out of bed every morning and venture out into the world to do your thing and contribute to the world around you".
So your vocation might be teaching more generally but your ikigai might be teaching that one class of delinquent kids nobody likes, and striving to make them succeed, for example? But maybe I'm wrong.
Which dictionaries are they? I've never seen that. Here's the entry from the Cambridge Dictionary:
a type of work that you feel you are suited to doing and to which you should give all your time and energy, or the feeling that a type of work suits you in this way:
I feel I've found/missed my true vocation.
Most teachers regard their profession as a vocation, not just a job.
To work in medicine, you should have a vocation for it.
That is the part that makes it different. "Ikigai" isn't bound to an occupation or work, where "vocation" has to be.
I'm also not sure it needs to have a positive connotation ("brings good to the world"), making people's lives a nightmare can be your reason and pleasure to live. That's of course not the PR piece's point of view, I agree with the other comments on how bad that Venn diagram is at the end.
I went to a Lutheran school that did a mini camp for finding vocation.
However when interacting the job market, I realized early on in my career that the modern economy leaves little room for exploring just that. Those I've observed bucking that trend I would more describe as "following their curiosity" - because usually, some good comes of it, even if you're not sure where it leads.
I like to think of words having two layers of meaning: The first is closer to what we think of as The Meaning and is an extrinsic referent, such as a physical item, some cultural custom, or an emotion or feeling. The second layer is nuance, i.e. the cloud of homonymic overtones, cultural and historical associations, and habitual usages that color the first meaning.
The second layer controls things like formality register (e.g. business languages vs. informal vernacular), mood, jokes, and all the elements of communication that go beyond just base information transfer.
In my experience when translating between languages, it's virtually impossible to capture the subtleties of the second layer of meaning. You always have to make some concessions, pertinent to the intent and goals of the communication at hand. E.g. translating a joke in a business exchange will often choose different translations for the same words used in a more brass-tacks context.
Anyway, all that is to say that, sure, "passion" or "purpose" are perfectly fine translations of ikigai (生き甲斐), but they simultaneously connote very different things. Passion invokes images of strong emotions, beliefs, or some fire under the feet. Purpose potentially conjures ideas of necessity or philosophical meaning. None of these things are really suggested by the Japanese word.
More generally, the the "gai" suffix (甲斐) is used on verbs to mean something like "to be worth doing" or "to have been worth doing". In particular, it's often used to refer to the particular result or effect that makes the thing worth doing. In the case of "ikigai", we combine it with "iki", from the verb "to live" (生きる), which gives us something like "the thing that makes life worth living".
The main feeling difference between "ikigai" and "purpose" or "passion", IMHO, is that the Japanese is light, personal, and something that doesn't need significance beyond personal enjoyment, pleasure, or values.
There's a weird fascination in much of the Western world with Japan.
We see posts talking about Japan on the first page of HN quite regularly.
I am myself somewhat fascinated with Japan as I grew up with many Japanese descendants (their parents were "real" japanese, I am from Brazil and most of them came to Brazil in the 50's, so my friends born in the 70's and 80's were still first generation brazilians) and have been there to visit them once.... but I find it odd that there's no such fascination with most other countries.
I suspect it's because Japan is both very different culturally, but very similar in level of development, so it's "easier" to like them instead of think of them as inferiors (which was how the West seemed to see them before the Great Wars, from what I read).
I have to wonder who is upvoting this promotional material. Has this reconstructed ikigai concept not burnt through social media already, or will we have to see it resurge every few years?
But summing up their "profound discovery" in a single sentence wouldn't give them the opportunity to write a 200 page bloviated soft-serve yogurt treatise on the guaranteed secrets to true happiness.
I disagree. As the other comments have stated, umami and savory are completely different words. I agree that kawaii and cute are synonyms, but I only see it being used in vaguely japanese-related contexts, where it's not necessary but also not in any way a misuse, similar to how "hors d'oeuvre" is used in place of "appetizer".
People using "umami" in English is a big pet peeve of mine. It's so damn pretentious. "Savory" covers the meaning more than adequately and has existed in the language for a long time. There's no reason for the foreign loan word except to try to sound super smart.
Umami refers to a specific flavour, savoury refers to a broad category of foods that are basically not sweet. You can have "savoury" meals that have no umami flavour.
The Japanese word isekai refers to the desire to escape your miserable life and start from scratch in a new, better place /s
Jokes aside, I live in Japan, and I wouldn't take them as the example of a happy, balanced society. Given the explosion of popularity of isekai animes in recent years, quite the opposite.
Amazing to see this. I just landed after a week in Japan where we discovered this word and instantly recognised how it applies to our team. Made heavy use of it when pitching to explain our passion for what we do.
Related. Others?
Ikigai: What We Got Wrong and How to Find Meaning in Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39777896 - March 2024 (83 comments)
Photography and Ikigai - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31579522 - June 2022 (10 comments)
Passion is self-centered crap. Find your Ikigai (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486393 - July 2019 (20 comments)
Ikigai and Mortality (2008) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16248307 - Jan 2018 (1 comment)
I'm sure there are more. I recall tons of these posts, and am too lazy to search. It was, and I guess still is, a thing that people go back to over and over. I think it makes people feel good for no particular reason
My Japanese friend said "My 生き甲斐 is travel". She was unfamiliar with the Venn diagram, for her she would directly translate it as "passion".
Turns out the Venn diagram relation is from a random 2014 blog post. He just found a Venn diagram online and replaced the word "purpose" with "ikigai":
http://theviewinside.wpengine.com/meme-seeding/
I've talked to a number of Japanese people about Ikigai, and they either didn't know about the Venn diagram, or thought it misrepresented the concept. It's the modern-day equivalent of "the Chinese word for crisis" [0]. But now it's unstoppable—I'm sure you can find pillows on Etsy with the diagram.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_word_for_crisis
>When we asked what their ikigai was, they gave us explicit answers, such as their friends, gardening, and art
Correct me if I'm wrong but almost no one is paid for friends, gardening or art. And the definition of ikigai is "something you can be paid for". So this concept of ikigai essentially does not exist.
Based on the article alone, you seem to be getting that from the Venn diagram. But the Venn diagram doesn’t attempt to define Ikigai. It’s a tool to help one find their own ikigai.
The definition of ikugai in the article does not include something you can be paid for.
My hot take is that the part that got lost in translation as it transitioned into a pithy airport bookstore business book is that it originally didn't have to be a single activity that covers all of the Venn diagram.
It is more about making sure the union of the Venn diagram is covered by one or more daily activities. So hobbies are about ensuring that you are not just focusing on the vocation circle.
Ikigai is a great branding for Japan. They’ve taken a word, declared it untranslatable and a unique component of Japanese culture.
Denmark has done the same with the word “Hygge” and you’ll find books named “hygge”, next to books named “ikigai” in self-help section of any airport bookstore.
I don’t think discussing ikigai is uninteresting, but there is a feedback loop. Japanese soft power benefits from ikigai being special, and books and articles about ikigai also benefits from it being unique and special. The more books you can sell on ikigai, the stronger Japans cultural influence becomes and as a result, the potential readership of ikigai book grows.
There are a number of books about supposedly “unique” cultural phenomena like this one:
- Niksen (Dutch)
- Sisu (Finnish)
- Döstädning (Swedish)
- Lagom (Swedish)
- Réussir sans forcer (French)
- Raising Self-Reliant Children (German)
- Wabi Sabi (Japanese)
I wonder what other unique cultural concepts HN users have come across (perhaps from their own culture)?
Estonians as "forest people" -- Estonian researchers tracing the roots of this myth here: https://keeljakirjandus.ee/en/archives/26316
A full-length article by the same scholars: https://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol81/remmel_jonuks.pdf
FWIW, I'm by no means trying to be cynical, especially considering that I do some (lighter) forestry work myself, have done lots of tree planting and definitely love being in the wilderness. Forest and nature do play a central role in our cultural heritage. Currently, however, other members of this same society carry out massive clear-cuttings in our forests. So... this is "us" as well, I guess. Demolishing and praising, side by side. That's why the work of these referred two scholars is really interesting, maybe even corageous in a way, considering that "forest wars" are a huge topic in Estonia these days.
- Freedom (US)
I would like to see the Venn diagram for it?
Here’s ikigai’s:
https://performanceexcellencenetwork.org/pensights/finding-l...
> the Venn diagram
ijawfnltl = is just another word for nothing left to losef = freedom
af = ain't free
Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLZtnqnV2Jc
> Döstädning
I've never heard of this despite living in Sweden for over 30 years
I would have thought the Swedish word encapsulating a better life, would have been “fika”
Anyway, death cleaning seems more like a small Maria Kondo moment for Sweden than an actual cultural thing
https://www.countryliving.com/home-maintenance/cleaning/a451...
Susegad in Goa.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susegad
> They’ve taken a word, declared it untranslatable and a unique component of Japanese culture.
Pretty sure this is foreigners who did this. On the other hand, a lot of Japanese are convinced they're living in the only country with 4 seasons.
This reminded me of Japanese micro seasons [0] which I found delightful.
0: https://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00124/
I have these in my google calendar. Kinda forgot they were japanese and they don't line up with our (european) weather perfectly, but i still enjoy seeing them there.
Found them on HN years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20377098
Thanks for the link!
Ah yes, the beautiful four seasons of Japan: rain, more rain, a fuckload of rain, and snow /s
To add to this, I would argue that ikigai can be directly translated to purpose in English. Sure purpose has additional meanings, and ikigai has a philosophy behind it which one word like “purpose” does not convey, but if you use purpose in a sentence that has something to do with how you find meaning in life and a reason to go on, then people will correctly understand your meaning.
If purpose is not good enough then try “a reason for being” “a reason to live” etc
Maybe people are confusing describing a whole philosophical concept with translating a word
If there was a massive push for "ikigai" either within Japan or outside of it, I totally missed it. To me, this looks one of those articles written by some random bureaucrat that no one really reads.
Regarding the article, there are indeed many words and phrases that can't really be translated to English. I don't think "ikigai" is one of them, though. It's called a purpose.
This is one of the reasons I didn't like "The Toyota Way" book. I have read it after I have been exposed to the theory of constraints and some other knowledge about production organization, and I was turned off about all the "mystery".
Same thing about meditation. Tried so many times and failed. Finally acquired the skill with a good self-hypnosis book. Appreciate the meditation/self-hypnosis ever after.
In both cases, I think highly about these ideas and practices, be it "ikigai" or "a reason for being", "muda" or "eliminating bottlenecks", "meditation" or "trance". Each person has their own way to understand these and either is fine when it works, but the artificial mysticism is disappointing.
---
Yet, it is interesting to observe that "ikigai" needs several words to be translated to English. I suppose it reflects the the importance of the concept in the culture. Like the 50 eskimo words for snow.
> meditation/self-hypnosis
That's an interesting comparison. What's the name of the book?
Foreigners, especially journalists, do this in every article about Japan. Easy template:
____ the Japanese art of ____.
For example:
O-shiri-o-kaku the Japanese art of ass scratching.
They do it with thumb or something.
I saw a coffee ad yesterday waxing poetic about the calmness and ancient history of traditional Japanese kissaten and my eyes just about rolled out of my head. It's totally unlike an American coffeehouse, you see, because they use dark roasts.
At the end, there's one of the craziest Venn diagrams I've seen in a while. The diagram asserts that --- by definition --- you aren't good at your "mission," the world does not need your "profession," you can't be paid for your "passion," and you can't love your "vocation." Grim!
That's not what it's trying to imply. It's saying that if you chose a job based on what the world needs and what you love doing, you're in the realm of completing a mission. Then you look at the diagram to see what you're missing to reach Ikigai. This is a very "glass half empty" look at a literal diagram lol.
There's this diagram, and there's David Graeber's book Bullshit Jobs.
"What you love" and "What you are good at" certainly have a non-empty intersection, but that's mostly a distinct set from "what you can be paid for". "What you are good at" and "What you can be paid for" also have a non-empty intersection, but that set is again (mostly) distinct from "what you love". In brief, you can enjoy work, but then it will pay shit, or you can make money, but you'll hate it.
The most interesting part however is the right hand side. "What you can be paid for" and "What the world needs" have a practically empty intersection. Regardless of both personal skill and drive, there is effectively zero money available for the sorest needs of society. (Public healthcare (including mental health), public education, public infrastructure, etc.)
Nice diagram, but a pipe dream.
The obvious question to ask about this purported "pick two" triad is, why must that be so?
- If one is good at their job, why does that imply that either they won't be paid well, or they'll hate it?
- If one enjoys their job, why does that imply they must be paid poorly or suck at it?
- If one is paid well, why does that imply they will be eaten alive by work or terrible at their job?
The assertions such diagrams make just don't stand up to scrutiny when viewed in reverse. They should stand up to symmetry, and clearly do not; the veneer of logic is peeled away. Instead it reveals the underlying issue: they serve only to elucidate a cynical outlook.
Perhaps in general, I'll admit, there is presently a shortage of opportunities working for the public good; but I'm reluctant to even give an inch on that because it lends itself to a cynical belief system about the world which the statement alone does not imply: it is not necessarily a true inference to say that, if there is a shortage, there will never be; or, that if one wants such a job, they will never be able to get it and best give up early.
Don't let cynicism take you. It will take, and take, and take, and leave you only table scraps of joy.
These are basically narratives from Romantic fiction of the starving artist that are still being repeated as if they are not just fiction.
Of course, the starving artist can not be well paid. That would imply they are not a true artist, they are a sell out.
The starving artist is starving because they are misunderstood by society so naturally what they love is not going to have a lot of economic value.
None of this of course has anything to do with reality. Just the plot lines from 200 year old novels that we have forgot were just novels.
> The obvious question to ask about this purported "pick two" triad is, why must that be so?
It is not a law of the universe, so the answer to your question is "it isn't necessarily". But even if it isn't always true, it's usually true. And thus it's a useful metric to keep in mind. Being lucky enough to get all three qualities in your job is rare, and you can't expect that it'll happen.
You're not reading it right. The labels overlap, they are not disjoint.
and furthermore that particular configuration is not set in stone !
The point of the exercise is to maximize the overlap ! Brown goooood.
> The diagram asserts that --- by definition --- you aren't good at your "mission,"
This is a misreading of the Venn diagram. Ikigai is the only section where Passion, Mission, Profession, and Vocation all intersect. The "Passion" etc sections are not bounded to the 2-layer overlaps where the labels sit, they extend into the 3 and 4-layer overlaps also.
But I'll grant you that the Venn diagram is crazy and overpacked.
This is an interesting take on the concept of Ikigai - https://www.lkazphoto.com/blog/photography-and-ikigai
How to balance ikigai with society ? being averaged by groups and stuck in norms is probably the number one reason daily life is the opposite of ikigai.
I found this useful
The Problem with Ikigai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeX6kNbaF0w
The TLDR I got from is that first - that the diagram itself was made up by someone trying to write a business blog/book.
The second is that the goal is not to find one singular activity to cover the intersection of the Ikigai Venn diagram. Instead it can be better to have multiple different activities which ensure the union of the Ikigai Venn diagram is covered so you aren't myopically focused on one area of it.
This is a meaningless diagram that CEOs roll out when they want to make the point that everyone should focus more on business.
It has the same value as the Gartner Magic Quadrant.
I absolutely hate this concept. It's trite life advice wrapped up in self-serving orientalism/ethnic exceptionalism.
It literally just boils down to "if you find life meaningless, just find some mundane thing and invest it with meaning for yourself", and somehow I'm supposed to be wowed by an aenemic, EILIF version of Nietzche. Literal "Place" vs "Place, Japan" meme.
Why do you think Japan has so much suicide? Because all anybody has to say to anybody is "ganbattene~". Some people run out of "ganbari"? "Ganbattene~~".
Japan suicide rate has decreased a lot, and is now almost the world average, it is actually lower than in the US and several European countries.
I agree however that this smells of orientialism. I don't speak anywhere fluently Japanese, but having lived there for 15 years, the only time I've seen or heard of the ikigai concept is in the "Book for foreigners" section.
Is this term actually used widely through Japanese culture or are they just riding the popularity train? E.g. if I'm in a "planning your future career" class in a high school in Japan, is the concept of ikigai going to come up?
Most Japanese people do not use this term, and I'm fairly certain most Japanese people don't even really know the word. This is one of those "Big in Japan" things, except, uh, "Big outside Japan".
Source: live in Japan, have asked Japanese people around me if they know about this concept (that is popular in USA). Usually hear: へ〜、全然知らない。
It's a normal word/concept that everyone's familiar with.
As for career planning, I don't think it's very relevant. The sorta-equivalent sayings like "do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life!" tend to be used in a way that puts existing preferences and interests first, and everything else as a consequence of it. The way I'd think of "ikigai" in a career context, the work being meaningful (as in the opposite of a "bullshit job") is what comes first. Since it's meaningful, it's something the world needs, so you can get paid for it. Since it's the opposite of a bullshit job, you're motivated to devote the time and effort and attention to be(come) good at it. A job well-done is satisfying. So I'd envision it as something you settle into, rather than plan ahead with your guidance counselor equivalent.
It's also not necessarily a word specific to jobs/careers in the first place, and in a literal sense only means "I live for this" / "it's worth living for". The rest is a recent fixation by writers.
It's a normal term, but I'm not familiar with it being used like this. This does smell like a "self improvement" marketing push.
The Japanese Wikipedia article seems to heavily cite Western sources as the origin for this usage.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E7%94%B2%E6...
Back in reality, the word is more commonly used in the expression 生き甲斐がある (ikigai ga aru) which means roughly "Life is good", "I'm glad to be alive", which you might use after sipping a really good beer for example.
No. It's just lifestyle marketing.
Good old orientalism
According to this, if I ever make a living off music I'd be in paradise.
Too bad Suno can crank out weird lofi beats faster than I can...
I read the book referenced in the article. Recommended!
Simple but effective ideas. Similar in vibe to the book The Four Agreements.
I like how the sets in the articles show that you cannot love your profession
Do you know why people in Okinawa and Sardinia have great longevity? Is it Ikigai, or living simple village life, or eating maggot infested cheese? No, it's because of lack of record keeping, specifically families keeping people "alive" to collect pensions:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704080v3
Response from some blue zone demographers to the paper you linked: https://www.bluezones.com/news/are-supercentenarian-claims-b...
It begins, "The pre-print is not new data, research, or a study. It is a theory – an opinion paper that the author has been unable to get published in any scientific journal or peer-reviewed publication. The original version of the paper was released as a pre-print in 2019 and still has not been properly published, meaning the theories have never passed any scientific peer review."
And it continues with a point-by-point rebuttal.
Worth taking a look at.
Blue zones demographers from https://bluezones.com rebut research against blue zones? Color me convinced!
So your method of assessing the veracity of information has nothing to do with the information itself, but is entirely based upon who it's from?
Not entirely. But I do know the meaning of vested in vested interests.
If someone tells me 2+2=4 or even 2+2=5, it won't matter to me what their vested interests are, unless I don't know arithmetic.
It could be pension fraud!
“Most Age Records are Pension Fraud, Scientist Says” => https://youtu.be/VpwXswyt-zg?si=EyT1KpxA0JY7kk17
Nonetheless it’s not uncommon to see 80 year olds riding bikes here in Italy.
.
"Recently been shown" by the paper I linked to.
I think I have an issue with knowing what I love.
I dont actually know what I love, so I'm not sure I can ever find Ikigai in my life...
Seems like someone would be lucky to have the intersection of three or four.
have hobbies and goals and participate in community activities... I don't know how I feel about platitudes like this. On one hand, it is obviously true and doing this things will make you feel better... but at the same time I think most people already understand this and its not a matter of simply not knowing that this is a helpful thing to do.
not to be confused with ikijime: The secret to tasty fish
"I want fugu!"
This article kind of feels like a "place, Japan" type of article not going to lie. "There is no other word like this in any other language." Passion? Purpose?
"Vocation" is a synonym, though it is misrepresented by the Venn diagram at the bottom of the article
Looking up "vocation" in modern dictionaries just says that it's a career, but that is wrong. The real meaning is a "calling", or: something that brings good to the world, that you can do, that you enjoy doing, and that sustains your livelihood
I grew up around Lutheran communities who stressed what a gift a vocation is because it isn't something that most people can reach. But we shouldn't stop looking for ours
From the excellent 1913 Webster's dictionary:
Vo-ca′tion (vō̍-kā′shŭn), noun [L. vocatio a bidding, invitation, fr. vocare to call, fr. vox, vocis, voice: cf. F. vocation. See Vocal.]
1. A call; a summons; a citation; especially, a designation or appointment to a particular state, business, or profession.
2. Destined or appropriate employment; calling; occupation; trade; business; profession.
3. (Theol.) A calling by the will of God. Specifically: –
(a) The bestowment of God’s distinguishing grace upon a person or nation, by which that person or nation is put in the way of salvation; as, the vocation of the Jews under the old dispensation, and of the Gentiles under the gospel.
(b) A call to special religious work, as to the ministry.
I take issue with the phrasing, but not with the meaning, especially with the historical context.
More or less: that thing which you seem to have an overriding passion for, which usually leads to talent. Even if it doesn't, though, it's still something that defines a significant part of your life and character, and that is not to be ignored.
Not a Japanese person, but the way this has been explained to me feels slightly broader than the concept of vocation.
The explanation was more along the lines of, "what gives your life meaning, joy, and purpose, and makes you motivated to get out of bed every morning and venture out into the world to do your thing and contribute to the world around you".
So your vocation might be teaching more generally but your ikigai might be teaching that one class of delinquent kids nobody likes, and striving to make them succeed, for example? But maybe I'm wrong.
Also, the venn diagram at the bottom is lacking the most important information, what the 'curved triangles' represent. There's a better one here: https://i0.wp.com/marieskelton.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/0... (ironically taken from another article like the one linked here. https://marieskelton.com/finding-your-passion-and-purpose/ )
Which dictionaries are they? I've never seen that. Here's the entry from the Cambridge Dictionary:
a type of work that you feel you are suited to doing and to which you should give all your time and energy, or the feeling that a type of work suits you in this way:
I feel I've found/missed my true vocation.
Most teachers regard their profession as a vocation, not just a job.
To work in medicine, you should have a vocation for it.
Synonym calling formal
Compare career noun
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/vocation
> that sustains your livelihood
That is the part that makes it different. "Ikigai" isn't bound to an occupation or work, where "vocation" has to be.
I'm also not sure it needs to have a positive connotation ("brings good to the world"), making people's lives a nightmare can be your reason and pleasure to live. That's of course not the PR piece's point of view, I agree with the other comments on how bad that Venn diagram is at the end.
A "calling" seems like a perfectly cromulent word for what's being talked about
I went to a Lutheran school that did a mini camp for finding vocation.
However when interacting the job market, I realized early on in my career that the modern economy leaves little room for exploring just that. Those I've observed bucking that trend I would more describe as "following their curiosity" - because usually, some good comes of it, even if you're not sure where it leads.
> the modern economy leaves little room for exploring just that
If the needs of medical insurance was not tied to a proper "job", people might just follow their curiosities.
What is “the real meaning” of a word though?
The definition it is given by the group that actually uses it
Have you heard of "vocational schools"?
That use of the term is no more "wrong" than yours -- i.e. they are both correct and clear in context.
I'm very aware of the Latin root.
On average, "water".
Looking at an Japanese to English dictionary:
https://jisho.org/search/%E7%94%9F%E3%81%8D%E7%94%B2%E6%96%9...
Besides the examples you mention, the French phrase “raison d'être” is commonly used in English well.
I like to think of words having two layers of meaning: The first is closer to what we think of as The Meaning and is an extrinsic referent, such as a physical item, some cultural custom, or an emotion or feeling. The second layer is nuance, i.e. the cloud of homonymic overtones, cultural and historical associations, and habitual usages that color the first meaning.
The second layer controls things like formality register (e.g. business languages vs. informal vernacular), mood, jokes, and all the elements of communication that go beyond just base information transfer.
In my experience when translating between languages, it's virtually impossible to capture the subtleties of the second layer of meaning. You always have to make some concessions, pertinent to the intent and goals of the communication at hand. E.g. translating a joke in a business exchange will often choose different translations for the same words used in a more brass-tacks context.
Anyway, all that is to say that, sure, "passion" or "purpose" are perfectly fine translations of ikigai (生き甲斐), but they simultaneously connote very different things. Passion invokes images of strong emotions, beliefs, or some fire under the feet. Purpose potentially conjures ideas of necessity or philosophical meaning. None of these things are really suggested by the Japanese word.
More generally, the the "gai" suffix (甲斐) is used on verbs to mean something like "to be worth doing" or "to have been worth doing". In particular, it's often used to refer to the particular result or effect that makes the thing worth doing. In the case of "ikigai", we combine it with "iki", from the verb "to live" (生きる), which gives us something like "the thing that makes life worth living".
The main feeling difference between "ikigai" and "purpose" or "passion", IMHO, is that the Japanese is light, personal, and something that doesn't need significance beyond personal enjoyment, pleasure, or values.
</2cents>
It is an article on a Japanese Government website, of course they're going to promote themselves.
Honestly, I find it weird to have this posted here. It's just a classic "Welcome to ____" site for attracting tourists.
There's a weird fascination in much of the Western world with Japan. We see posts talking about Japan on the first page of HN quite regularly.
I am myself somewhat fascinated with Japan as I grew up with many Japanese descendants (their parents were "real" japanese, I am from Brazil and most of them came to Brazil in the 50's, so my friends born in the 70's and 80's were still first generation brazilians) and have been there to visit them once.... but I find it odd that there's no such fascination with most other countries.
I suspect it's because Japan is both very different culturally, but very similar in level of development, so it's "easier" to like them instead of think of them as inferiors (which was how the West seemed to see them before the Great Wars, from what I read).
I have to wonder who is upvoting this promotional material. Has this reconstructed ikigai concept not burnt through social media already, or will we have to see it resurge every few years?
But summing up their "profound discovery" in a single sentence wouldn't give them the opportunity to write a 200 page bloviated soft-serve yogurt treatise on the guaranteed secrets to true happiness.
that's how i feel about umami (savoury) and kawaii (cute)
I disagree. As the other comments have stated, umami and savory are completely different words. I agree that kawaii and cute are synonyms, but I only see it being used in vaguely japanese-related contexts, where it's not necessary but also not in any way a misuse, similar to how "hors d'oeuvre" is used in place of "appetizer".
People using "umami" in English is a big pet peeve of mine. It's so damn pretentious. "Savory" covers the meaning more than adequately and has existed in the language for a long time. There's no reason for the foreign loan word except to try to sound super smart.
Umami refers to a specific flavour, savoury refers to a broad category of foods that are basically not sweet. You can have "savoury" meals that have no umami flavour.
I can assure you that japanese people don't refer to umami as a flavor lol
Umami is a subset of savory.
It's not pretentious (when used correctly), it's more precise.
That is correct. I buy a liquid specifically labeled as ‘Umami’ that my family adds to vegetables, rice, etc.
Is the liquid MSG solution or is there something else in there?
No MSG.
So what is it?
Yondu vegetable umami
It’s not the same flavor
Can you not distinguish the flavour of umami from other flavors?
It's easy to find examples such as:
"Taste receptors in the mouth sense the five basic tastes: sweetness, sourness, saltiness, bitterness, and savoriness (also known as savory or umami)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taste#Basic_tastes
You do realise that this is published by the Japanese government, right?
"get a life"? (seriously)
The Japanese word isekai refers to the desire to escape your miserable life and start from scratch in a new, better place /s
Jokes aside, I live in Japan, and I wouldn't take them as the example of a happy, balanced society. Given the explosion of popularity of isekai animes in recent years, quite the opposite.
[dead]
Japan (historically high suicide rates), telling us how to live. I think I'll take my chances with another philosophy.
Stereotypically. In reality, it's middle of the pack in either 2000 or 2019 and lower than the US now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
Maybe country-level culture is too coarse-grained to tell any individual what is right for them?
(BTW, I get the irony of an American saying this, but I do say it sincerely)
Amazing to see this. I just landed after a week in Japan where we discovered this word and instantly recognised how it applies to our team. Made heavy use of it when pitching to explain our passion for what we do.